Instead of 4 weapon types, how about voting?

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Instead of 4 weapon types, how about voting?

Post  Arch3r on Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:59 am

How about dropping the 4 weapon types limit and allowing factions to have lots of weapon types, as long as they indicate their strengths and weaknesses. Whether it's ok is decided by the rest of the tBfC members.
What do you think of this?
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Re: Instead of 4 weapon types, how about voting?

Post  Austupaio on Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:11 am

I prefer variety, and the faction's weakness being displayed in a unique way.

My faction, only having cavalry for one troop with those horses being expensive, as well as no free horses is a good example, I think.

I also have low quality ranged weapons, but my archer's get heavier armour to make up for it.

I also like the Fantasians and their lack of armour, fighting quick barbarians with Arquebus will be fun.
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Re: Instead of 4 weapon types, how about voting?

Post  Arch3r on Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:16 am

Reveran lacks blunt weapons, making them vulnerable to super-heavy armored enemies, as their axes can still bring medium-heavy armored enemies down. Also their cavalry has no shield, no thrusting weapon, only a two-handed slashing polearm that's very slow to use. They also have a bow, but not much Horse Archery skill, making them annoying but not deadly. The crossbowmen aren't very good at ranged either but are more an axeman/crossbowman hybrid. Therefor Reverans lack good ranged troops, but are quite deadly in melee.
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Re: Instead of 4 weapon types, how about voting?

Post  CFR on Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:57 am

I like this also the fantasians have no horses!
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Re: Instead of 4 weapon types, how about voting?

Post  Austupaio on Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:13 am

Except the ones on their heads!
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Re: Instead of 4 weapon types, how about voting?

Post  Arch3r on Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:19 am

Horse skulls are shields!
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Re: Instead of 4 weapon types, how about voting?

Post  Plazek on Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:12 pm

Perhaps a good idea.

However, I am not sure that voting is the best idea. Popularity contests =/= Fairness.
I would be happier if there were perhaps some more freeform rules to allow more variety but I do not think votes are the best way.

Though I also wonder what the purpose is here. Right now I quite like being limited, it forces strengths and weaknesses to exist within the troops. We do after all already have variety and unique strengths and weaknesses. In what way would changing the system improve upon it?

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Re: Instead of 4 weapon types, how about voting?

Post  Austupaio on Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:16 pm

I haven't seen the four weapon rule anyways, exactly what is it?

Do you mean literally only four weapons, or four types?

Just wanted a specific ruling, and what exactly are the categories?

The way I understand it right now is how the AB have halberds, rapiers, crossbows and guns, and allowed varying levels of quality for each?

If that's the case, that's barely balancing at all, but limiting.

For example, my faction would have one handed-swords (rapiers and dussacks), halberds, crossbows and guns. So now I'm losing out on two handers, and with that extra variety and fun-ness, but this doesn't help to balance my faction at all, as not having two handers doesn't really make it a weaker faction.

The lack of shields in my faction on the other hand, does make us very vulnerable to archers and gunners.
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Re: Instead of 4 weapon types, how about voting?

Post  Plazek on Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:37 pm

Each unit type is allowed only 4 types of equipment.

For example the Plazekstinian Foot Knight has; 2h swords, shields, pistols, ammo.

The equipment types as I can remember them are:

1h weapons
2h weapons
Polearms
Shields
Bows
X-Bows
Arrows
Bolts
Ammo
Horses
Throwing weapons

Maybe I missed something but I am sure you get the idea. You are allowed as many weapons of that type as you want, but each weapon must be fitting within the rules of weapon/equipment making.

However there has always been some ambiguity with certain matters.
-For example where do bastard swords fit it?
-I also noticed Arch3r put one of the weaknesses of his faction as no blunt weapons, I do not remember seeing it specificly but when you choose for example 1h weapons must you also choose whether it is a sword/blunt/axe weapon?

However you might want to note that AB are not exactly following these rules. They have X bows, bolts, guns(with polearm switch on X), 1h swords and 1h hammers. All on their ranged troop type. If you want to see factions that are actually sticking with the equipment rules as stated then check out Reveran and Plazekstein.

Anyway I do rather like the current system, however IMO it does need some improvement and clarification regarding certain matters. Also as I already stated rules > votes.

PS

Restriction is a part of balance. Without restriction you could have horse archers who have guns 2h swords, lances, axes and well, everything. This would not be balanced.

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Re: Instead of 4 weapon types, how about voting?

Post  Nikephoros on Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:41 pm

I wrote a post, but it didn't seem to work.

I stated that we have four FREE weapon types for our infantry\cavalry\ranged, and optional, costy, weapons. Our footmen have a free one hander sword, a free spear, a shield and can buy (pole)hammers and halberds, for example. Our skirmishers have free crossbow and bolts, and may purchase an arquebuse with bullets, as the cavalry has free lance\crossbow\bolts and can purchase a shield.

I thought it was like in native, when you have a set of free basic equipment and you can buy more weapons spending money(i think of the 2handers for the sarranids, for example).

If it constitutes a breach of the rules (which are, by the way, still in discussion), if you want to tell us, you are more than welcome Smile
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Re: Instead of 4 weapon types, how about voting?

Post  Plazek on Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:45 pm

I could not care less while we are in beta.
I just wanted to point out that as far as I understood the rules your units do not match them. Perhaps though my understanding is wrong?

Either way the aim was to explain to Austup not bash AB or anythin Smile

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Re: Instead of 4 weapon types, how about voting?

Post  Austupaio on Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:18 pm

Going to be honest here, next to my own Very Happy , AB is my favourite faction.

You other guys are all candy coloured. Laughing

Well, maybe Arch3r could make a thread clearing up the 4 weapon rules, and also where everyone can post their troops + their weapon choices?

Although, I'm with Plazek, as long were partly role-playing and having fun, I'm not too worried about balance unless someone is clearly over-powered.

I mean, on paper, the Suno clan sounds like it'd be over-powered, the have good heavy infantry, good heavy ranged, fast light cavalry and good heavy cavalry if I recall.

However, as long as they have to earn their money for the good items and work up to it, as well the bots being outfitted cheaply, they could be perfectly balanced.
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Re: Instead of 4 weapon types, how about voting?

Post  Arch3r on Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:07 am

From the TW thread:

[size=12pt]Classes and equipment.[/size]
Both groups can have their own troop tree and equipment. Each group/clan can choose and define 3 classes. Following preset rules each class can be specialized or generalized in stats and equipment. One of the classes gets a free skill point, boosting it's performance as that clans special troop. Each class can choose 4 weapon types, an example being crossbows, bolts, one-handed swords and shields for a crossbow class. Weapon stats can be modified by the model in a spoiler below. Every class can have 4 item types, also listed in the spoiler below. If you chose an item type, you can have 4 weapons of that type in your buy menu.

Item generating:

Rules for items will go like damage and/or reach decrease swing speed and increase weight. There is a minimum for weight and a maximum for swing speed/rate of fire (around 110 for melee, to be decided for ranged), range (around 120 for non-polearms, around 250 for polearms) and damage (around 32 for melee weapons). Of course a maximum for ammunition will be there too for ranged weapons. Each class can select up to 4 weapon/item types (including a shield, so 3 weapon types with shield.) If you chose an item type, you can have 4 weapons of that type in your buy menu. Also daggers are always available for all classes as standard equipment, and are free.
For example, if you choose 1h swords, 2h blunt weapons, shields and horses, you can have 4 different swords, 4 different blunt weapons, 4 different shields and 4 different horses and 1 dagger in the buy menu.
Weapon types are:

-one-handed swords
base damage: 23 slash 17 stab - base reach: 98 - base speed: 95 - base weight: 1.4
-two-handed swords
base damage: 36 slash 20 stab - base reach: 116 - base speed: 86 - base weight: 2.4
-one-handed axes (also include shortened scythes or falxes)
base damage: 32 slash - base reach: 70 - base speed: 90 - base weight: 1.6
-two-handed axes (also include shortened scythes or falxes)
base damage: 42 slash - base reach: 100 - base speed: 80 - base weight: 3.0
-one-handed maces/hammers
base damage: 24 blunt - base reach: 60 - base speed: 88 - base weight: 2.0
-two-handed maces/hammers
base damage: 36 blunt - base reach: 86 - base speed: 76 - base weight: 4.5
-one-handed picks/spiked clubs
base damage: 22 pierce - base reach: 96 - base speed: 96 - base weight: 1.3
-two-handed picks/spiked clubs
base damage: 34 pierce - base reach: 100 - base speed: 84 - base weight: 2.0
-Spears
base damage: 26 stab 20 blunt - base reach: 135 - base speed: 98 - base weight: 2.25 (+1 damage =-1 speed, +0.05 weight --- +2 reach =-1 speed, +0.10 weight)
-Pikes
base damage: 26 stab 12 blunt - base reach: 200 - base speed: 86 - base weight: 2.5 (+1 damage =-2 speed, +0.05 weight --- +5 reach =-1 speed, +0.25 weight)
-Slashing polearms
base damage: 36 slash 20 stab - base reach: 155 - base speed: 80 - base weight: 4.0
-Bow
base damage: 20 pierce - base speed: 90 - base missile speed: 53 - base PD req.: 2 - base weight 1.25
-Arrows
base damage: 1 pierce damage - base length: 95 - max ammo: 30 - base weight: 3.0 (+1 damage =-1 ammo, +0.1 weight)
-Crossbow
base damage: 50 pierce - base speed: 43 - base missile speed: 68 - base weight: 3.0
-Bolts
base damage: 1 pierce damage - base length: 55 - max ammo: 29 - base weight: 2.25 (+1 damage, +5 length speed =-2 ammo, +0.1 weight)
-Throwing axes
base damage: 39 cut - base speed: 98 - base missile speed: 20 - base weight: 5.0 - base length: 53 - max ammo: 5
(melee)
base damage: 29 slash - base reach: 53 - base speed: 98 - base weight: 5.0
-Throwing spears/javelins
base damage: 32 pierce - base speed: 94 - base missile speed: 28 - base weight: 5.0 - base length: 75 - max ammo: 7
(melee)
base damage: 18 stab 14 blunt - base reach: 75 - base speed: 94 - base weight: 5.0
Will be rebalanced later, just to give ya'll an idea.

For melee:
+Damage = -Speed (or -Reach or both) and +weight
+Speed = -Reach (or -Damage or both) and -weight
+Reach = -Speed (or -Damage or both) and +weight
-Weight = +Speed and -Damage (or -Reach or both)

For bows:
+Damage = -Speed,+weight and +Power Draw/Throw req.
+Missile speed = -Speed, +Power Draw/Throw req.

Max upgraded 5 times (for example the spear damage can be +5 and the range +10 max.)
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Re: Instead of 4 weapon types, how about voting?

Post  Plazek on Sun Apr 18, 2010 9:33 am

No mention of bastard swords.
So where exactly do they come in?

Or any other bastard weapon for that matter.

Also how about polearm muskets switching with X, do they count as a seperate polearm equipment group or does it still count as only a rifle?

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Re: Instead of 4 weapon types, how about voting?

Post  Vermin on Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:01 pm

Hello,

This is my third post on these forums and I already feel like it will be remembered. Well, I'm sorry I have to do this.

Earlier today I continued the work on tBfC and our faction, discussing and selecting stats and equipment with the people in our clan who are working on it. One of them asked me whether these factions will be used in tBfC, when I said yes, there was a long silence.
I had not seen the factions myself, but when he said we need a serious buff in that case, I wanted to see them for myself and I did.

Please do tell me that these factions are made to what they are for use in the invasionmod

Each of the factions had something I did not like, two factions broke the rules set for tBfC. I'm not going to list who did what, look at your own factions and you'll see what I mean. The one faction that didnt break the rules decided to use a weapon that doesnt belong in this setting.

We've spent alot of time discussing how exactly we can make a useful troop, within the limits of what is possible. Only to see that one faction basicly has a hero adventurer/master of the archers within its ranks. For those not familiar with Prophesy of Pendor/medieval history, its a knight who is proficient in archery(a rare combination in reality and really only seen in movies/fantasy as most MotA's didnt even shoot a (cross)bow, they were just good at measuring distances).

In the meantime we tried to create a basic class that, at best, can be compared with a bandit or a looter. followed by a ranged troop, that is what we are dedicated too, another troop that is rather weak and can best be compared to your average Vaegir/Sarranid archer.

The basic class will be kept and only slighty improved to allow them to survive in a normal battlesituation. But our ranged troops(2 atleast) will get a serious upgrade to make them strong enough to survive on the tBfC battlefield as it is now.
I'm abandoning the rules for atleast one class and we're going to give them some proper equipment. I believe our dedicated class deserves to be wellequipped and up to par with the other factions in this mod.

I'm glad that we are ill-prepared (no modders in our ranks), for it allows me to see what is introduced into this mod and how we can improve the class that needs improving.
An infantryman can get a 2h, shield, polearm and a bonusweapon(javelins) making him strong enough to beat anyone they face.
A cavalryman can get a sword, shield and lance, giving him mobility, a melee weapon and a polearm that can be used for lancing aswell as anticavalrywork on foot. a shield to protect him against archery completes the outfit. One of the cavalry involved here gets a heavy cavalry crossbow that they can use against archers from horseback. Its ok, you may keep them, but then we are allowed to buff our troops aswell (speaks for itself, I think).
The average archer has to buy arrows and a bow, then has to choose. a shield and sword means he has no weapon against cavalry(and some horses in this mod are wellprotected) or he can buy a 2hander/polearm and discard the shield, making him vulnerable to archers again. It gets even worse with a crossbowman, who's crossbow takes a long time to reload(vulnerable, no need to explain).
The only option would be to copy the existing swadian crossbowclass or start experimenting again and make serious sacrifices again.

Thats all for now, you'll hear more from us later.

Edit: Third post
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Re: Instead of 4 weapon types, how about voting?

Post  Arch3r on Sun Apr 18, 2010 3:27 pm

All factions will need heavy rebalancing and more equipment. Reveran does have a wide load of equipment already, but AB and 22nd have for example only one type of shield. Also yes, the AB horseman class has heavy armor, good horses, a good crossbow, a good sword and a good shield all in one class (kind of against the rules). Equipment will be the largest issue when it comes to balancing, therefor I think a few people should just look at them and say: This faction is clearly weaker than this and that has to be changed. I believe that works better than having a equipment system.

Anyways, good post.
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Re: Instead of 4 weapon types, how about voting?

Post  CFR on Sun Apr 18, 2010 3:36 pm

Im with Arch3r here, plus a formula does not always work and will still often result in players going going x and y are spammy ba**ards using there fe**ing Monkey wenches.
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Re: Instead of 4 weapon types, how about voting?

Post  Plazek on Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:39 am

We should play clan matches with them. Like so:

22nd vs CoR.

1st half: Field by river:
22nd = 22nd
CoR = CoR

1nd half: Field by river:
22nd = CoR
Cor = 22nd

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Re: Instead of 4 weapon types, how about voting?

Post  Arch3r on Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:29 am

Ye, I would still have to disable some weapons for my clan (the officer sword for example was just in for Invasion, and that's what Vermin was talking about probably)
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Re: Instead of 4 weapon types, how about voting?

Post  SCGavin on Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:27 am

One thing I'm not so sure about is the time setting and the use of guns. I can't remember the results of the vote some time back, but since then several things changed anyway (clan leaving, clans joining). The Guard is set to be in the period of the 13th century and this is taken from the starting date of Native Mount&Blade. I am not against variation, but having a Roman clan fighting against a gunpowder clan seems a bit too unrealistic to me. That might be interesting for the usual, not-campaign games, but when we play the campaign, that doesn't seem that interesting.
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Re: Instead of 4 weapon types, how about voting?

Post  Plazek on Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:57 am

Plazek wrote:No mention of bastard swords.
So where exactly do they come in?

Or any other bastard weapon for that matter.

Also how about polearm muskets switching with X, do they count as a seperate polearm equipment group or does it still count as only a rifle?

I still wanna know this.

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Re: Instead of 4 weapon types, how about voting?

Post  Arch3r on Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:14 pm

Pol outcome was that factions had to pick both two-handers and one-handers. I'd settle with a separate weapon type though.

SCGavin wrote:One thing I'm not so sure about is the time setting and the use of guns. I can't remember the results of the vote some time back, but since then several things changed anyway (clan leaving, clans joining). The Guard is set to be in the period of the 13th century and this is taken from the starting date of Native Mount&Blade. I am not against variation, but having a Roman clan fighting against a gunpowder clan seems a bit too unrealistic to me. That might be interesting for the usual, not-campaign games, but when we play the campaign, that doesn't seem that interesting.
How about romans with gunpowder? *looks at the 22nd*
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Re: Instead of 4 weapon types, how about voting?

Post  Plazek on Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:57 pm

Plazek wrote:
Plazek wrote:

Also how about polearm muskets switching with X, do they count as a seperate polearm equipment group or does it still count as only a rifle?

I still wanna know this.

OK then I still wanna know this.

Were not romans, our army is still in an early beta. I said to my modders we want a late mdeival look with a throwback to classical ages such as Roman times. In some places this pulled through in others they look plain ole Roman. It is a beta as you should know Razz

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Re: Instead of 4 weapon types, how about voting?

Post  Arch3r on Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:54 am

"OK then I still wanna know this."
Look at my above post. I answered it.
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Re: Instead of 4 weapon types, how about voting?

Post  Nikephoros on Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:58 am

So how are we menaging this weapon thing?

Do i have to change the equipment of my clan to 4 items per class only?
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Re: Instead of 4 weapon types, how about voting?

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